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Design Dilemma
grewa002

Slim receptacle? Another complication in the kitchen renovation front

grewa002
8 years ago
Hello, it appears that I keep posting,as every day new issues arise with our kitchen renovation.
Anyway, today the contractor put in a receptacle in the side of the kitchen island, but while there was plenty of space to put it inside the front cabinet, he put it where the wine fridge was supposed to go. Now the wine refrigerator cannot go in fully, and protrudes.
For the electricians or those with electrical knowledge: is there any electrical Bo's that is 1 inch or less deep?
Featured Answer
  • PRO
    JMG Audio Video Inc
    8 years ago
    That ia a very deep gang box. They make units that are much slimmer. Both plastic and metal variations.

    Comments (25)

    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      Thank you! Do you know of any specific models/ brands?
      Thanks!
    • PRO
      Pyramid Design Group Architects
      8 years ago

      I am confused as to why the outlet locations, appliances, etc not all specified and part of the design plans and details.

      grewa002 thanked Pyramid Design Group Architects
    • januarisun
      8 years ago

      This is poorly planned. The outlet shouldn't be on the same cabinet box as the refrigerator.

      grewa002 thanked januarisun
    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      @solraven, is there a reason for that other than the space?
      The truth is that on the other side of the island there would have been plenty of space!
    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      @ pyramid design, we had specified the appliances, and one outlet on the other side of the island, under an overhang. However today he said that by code we needed a second outlet, and the wine fridge was not installed yet, so I think the contractor miscalculated. In reality, both he and the cabinetmaker should have known code from the beginning and told me about that.
    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      8 years ago

      Have them look at a sillite outlet. If the side of the cabinet has already been cut out it may not we ork. I can't quite get a handle on we hat the photo is showing. You made mention of putting the outlet inside a cabinet which is not allowed per code.

      grewa002 thanked Brickwood Builders, Inc.
    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      @ Deborah Butler, I am sorry I did not make it clear.

      So far, they have installed the island cabinets but not the countertop. The last part of the island has a wine fridge. They had not installed the fridge yet in its place, and cut a hole on the side of the island and put the outlet.
      One picture I am showing is from the top. You can see the outlet box on the inside of the island, behind the wine fridge. The other picture shows how the fridge now protrudes, because it cannot fit to go all the way back.

      If the box of the outlet is less than 1-1.5 inches deep, then we could push the wine fridge all the way to the back, and it would not protrude.
    • tatts
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      Just go to Home Depot or Lowe's website and do a search. You don't need to come here and send 8 people on wild goose chases when a simple web search would answer your question immediately.

      And, anyway--that's for your contractor to answer.

    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      Tatts, I have spent the last few hours doing this kind of search, but I am a newbie in renovations, and fail to understand some things.

      This is a site where people ask for help, and if anyone is willing, they can answer. If they find it a waste of their time, they can choose not to answer.

      I am very grateful to many people on Houzz who do not find my questions stupid, and have helped me enormously with my project. I think when it is done, I will definitely owe a big part of it to the helpful people here on Houzz.
    • User
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      The box must have a specific volume according to how many wires are in it. However, it still appears to be deeper than necessary. I would need to know how many cables are entering the box and what size wire. It had better be 12 gauge 2 wire + ground, but could be one or two cables. (11.25 cu in or 15.75 cu in) OR (13.5 or 18 with cable clamps) The end panel appears to be 3/4" thick with a 1.5" wide face frame? How much further does it need to go back? 1/2"? The reason that you probably need a receptacle on that end as well, is because the range and downdraft split the island into two separate counters.

      NEC 210.52(C)(4)

      When breaks occur in countertop spaces for range tops, refrigerators, or sinks, each countertop space is considered as a separate countertop for determining receptacle placement.

    • TraceyE
      8 years ago

      @tatts- why the attitude, plenty of people will help Grewa002 if you don't want to, I thought Houzz was here so people could ask questions

    • User
      8 years ago

      Here is what you have


      Here is what might work


    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      FredS, thank you so much!
      I did try to google things myself, but the best I could find was a plastic blue box, but then I read that it does not meet code for most things.

      Both the electrician and contractor were there together, I think they were just working together.
    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      Thanks for the explanation. I got it now. I was thinking maybe it was the receptacle into which the under counter frig was to be plugged. Glad Fred found an answer for you. For those in this situation in the future, people around here are using the little sillite receptacles in islands and they are very small.

      grewa002 thanked Brickwood Builders, Inc.
    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago

      Thanks for the reply.

      I think it is too late for us now, but I will tell our contractor about the stillites for future purposes!

    • User
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      How could you Google this yourself? Home Depot or Lowes isn't going to tell you how big the box needs to be. The top chart doesn't even have one that would work. The difference between passing code on a box that is only an inch and a half deep is an extra 1/8 in width and square corners instead of rounded. The 1.5 × 4 × 2 1/8 won't work, but 1.5 × 4 × 2 1/4 will.

      But, I am sure Tatts knew all that and just assumed it was common knowledge that just any 1.5" deep box wouldn't do ;)

      Now to address the other people here that are trying to get all self righteous about the receptacle needing to have been on the plan. There is an exception that may or may not apply here depending on if the inspector wants to measure from the closest trim piece of the downdraft to the start of the edge profile of the counter or not.

      (4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1). If a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the depth of the countertop behind the range, countermounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink shall be considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces. Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).

      The cabinet designer will generally try to avoid the receptacle, but the electrician and inspector will usually insist on it for safety reasons especially if it is unclear at the time of electrical work if the counter will indeed be a FULL 12" or more. 1/16" less, or a beveled edge on the top is usually all an inspector is looking for to force the requirement of a receptacle that should be there anyway.


      In other words, these receptacles are always a struggle.

      grewa002 thanked User
    • PRO
      Main Line Kitchen Design
      8 years ago

      There actually looks like there is no problem to me. Normally a wine fridge door is out past the face of the cabinetry anyway. Only the fridge box is recessed. If you recess the wine fridge more then every time someone opens the door a little past 90 degrees the door will hit the cabinet and probably get dented. Increase the overhang of the countertop a little if having the front of the fridge door stick out past the cabinet doors bothers you.

    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago

      FredS, I believe you are exactly right, our plan had been for one outlet, but yesterday the electrician came, and apparently insisted on the other one. We do have 12 inches to the edge of the countertop though, so I wonder if we could have gone by without it!

    • User
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      I don't have much to go on here, but assuming the island cabinets are 36" wide, and you subtract the 27" that the range top and downdraft take up, then you only have 9" of cabinet + 1.5" overhang for a total of 10.5" of countertop.

      So, "the depth of the COUNTERTOP behind the range, countermounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.)", and you need a receptacle. The depth of the space defined by just the rear of the range top to the outside edge of the countertop would be about 13.5", but is irrelevant because the downdraft took out more of the countertop.

      Not including a receptacle on both ends is probably just an error in reading the code by the designer, but not for lack of trying to do it right. (they have probably passed plenty of inspections with similar islands where a hood was used instead) The technicality is what the inspectors live for, especially when most of them look at the potential for trying to run a cord across the range top. I don't have much tolerance for "professionals" not knowing the code and double checking all the specs, but this one seems to sneak up on people more than usual ;)

      Anyhow, it doesn't look like 12" anymore from here. (Rough measuring stick)

      grewa002 thanked User
    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago

      Thanks for all the effort. The overall width of the island is 41 inches, length is 109

    • tatts
      8 years ago

      Fred S: I never implied that HD or Lowe's could tell someone how big the box needs to be. That's just stupid.

      I assumed she would take a ruler, measure how much space she had and go online and find a box to fit the depth. Common sense.

      But, more importantly, she shouldn't be doing this at all. What she should be doing is telling the contractor to fix it and let her know when it's done. That's his job. Simple.

    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      The electrician is here today, and he said that this is the smallest he can put in.

      I showed to him the table that Fred S sent, and he told me this was the 2 inc, and the only one that can fit is the 1 1/2 inch, which does not meet code.

      So I insisted, and asked his assistant who was not listening to the initial conversation what the size of the current box was, as by my measurements this was not a 2 inch box . He told me that it is a 2 3/4 inch box!
      I confronted the electrician, and now he is going to change it to a 2 inch!!!!

    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      @ FredS: They said they fixed it! Thank you!!! If it wasn't for you, this would have stayed the same.

      @tatts: this is exactly how Houzz helps people like me going through remodeling. If I had not learned about the very specifics of outlet boxes, had not shown the electrician the table that FredS sent, and insisted on the measurements, the electrician would not have changed a thing. Unfortunately many go for the path of least resistance, the good enough, not the best possible.

      I am at work now, but will post pictures tonight

    • grewa002
      Original Author
      8 years ago
      This is today, the body of the fridge is now behind the wooden front.
      Thanks again
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