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Design Dilemma
fskamser

Tiling of Bathroom - 3 niches in bevelled metro tile... Not Right!!?

Zonca
6 years ago

Hello All, I think I need some expertise here.

I have hired a local company specialising in tile (amongst others), didn't bargain the price down at all, and I have just completed my 3 niche wall in bevelled, subway / or metro tile.


It seems to me that there are many errors - with this gray grout my eyes is especially attracted to them (see pics). Am I right in saying there are some major problems here?

- The grout above or below the niche is uneven

- Where corner trims meet, the tiles meet unevenly and sharp edges are exposed

- The rough cut edge of metro tile is exposed and looks unfinished

- Where the cement tiles meet the wall, it has been left without grout or silicone

- The tub plumbing trap has been left without metal trim

- He tells me I should use white paint to disguise the uneven wide lines of gray grout of each niche. Me!!? Why not do it right from the beginning?


He told me the space between the niches were not exactly the right height because they didn't include the additional grout measurement (they were 15cm like tile height). Is it not true that a small discrepancy can be somewhat corrected in tilting? And why didn't he insist on doing the construction of the niche himself if that's a major factor. Or supply me with the dimensions so the contractor could do it was he pleased?


True, where he has done just plain, laying of the tile there doesn't seem to be any problems. But the 3 niches look very poorly done to me. I believe this was beyond his competences.


What do I do? Am I within my rights to have this entire niche wall redone? I can't imagine looking at this for the next 15 years :-( I would be angry every time I saw it.


Your advice is greatly appreciated!

Featured Answer
  • User
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    You have some incorrectly specified products used here. That is not the right kind of tub at all to use for a tub shower, and neither is a beveled tile if you are going to use all of those niches that require cuts. If that cement tile is in a wet area, that is another issue. You are aware of the extra care requirements of that choice, right?

    This all goes back to the initial design. Who did all of the design work here and specified the incorrect products and layout? Because whomever designed this bears the most responsibility. The choices do not physically work for your design. No magic could have made them work either. They were wrong from the beginning.

    Then it moves to the person who did the framing if the space. A tiler CAN NOT fix bad framing. His work is only as good as the bones underneath. Who was the GC on the job coordinating and hiring all of the subcontractors? That is the next level of responsibility for the results.

    Comments (23)

    • jansgirl
      6 years ago

      It looks bad for some reason.

    • PRO
      Mark Spangler Architecture
      6 years ago

      Poor tile wrk and layout. I'd be asking for a pretty severe discount or replacement.

    • tatts
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Well, the 3 niches were just a stupid idea in the first place and badly executed in framing. How much junk do you need to store in that shower, anyway? It was a tiling disaster waiting to happen.

      The problem is that none of this was thought of in the planning process and it was left to the poor tiling guy to do the best he could.

      You knew that the patterned tile would end in the middle of the wall. Why didn't you pick a tile that had bullnose available? Now you have unfinished edges because of that choice.

      No, he didn't do a great job, but it's not all his fault. The plumber's trap shows that he tried to do the right thing.

      Any time you use contrasting grout against plain tile it will show up the tiniest flaws. You should have used white grout.

      Tile is a fixed size; there is only so much that can be done to accommodate the layout. What you needed for this surround was a much larger format tile that could be laid so that there weren't tiny slivers out of alignment.

      Yeah, there should be caulk where the floor meets the wall. Do it yourself.

    • PRO
      Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Your concerns are all warranted. This is an unacceptable job. I would not ask for a discount and live with it. I'm afraid when I read your comment "specializing in tile, amongst others", I could assume what was coming. Are you saying that this was not done by a dedicated tile craftsman? Appears that is the case, or at the very least, not a good tile professional. A real pro would not just install tile over inadequate framing. The end result would be poor and would therefore reflect on them. We prefer to build our own niches for that reason. We also would require other structural aspects of the job to be perfect or would request they be re-done to our specifications before tile installation. These inadequate tile installations are highlighted all over Houzz and it is disheartening for all involved as well as for the professional tile contractor industry. Homeowners need to vet their pros carefully. Oh, and a real pro would have no problem installing the tile you selected, but would also have advised you regarding the necessary trim and transition components. You might consider a solid surface base for each niche or even a solid surface material framing the inside and as base (see pics). So sorry you have experienced this.



      Zonca thanked Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
    • Zonca
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      @SophieWheeler - This is the type of embedded tub used in Europe and the tiles are treated for water. So, indeed these are correct.

    • User
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      So, it has an integral tile flange? Doubtful. European doesn't translate into properly done. Tiles are not ''treated for water''. The substrate needs to be waterproofed. What you have there is a recipe for moisture infiltration and rot. The capillary action of water behaves the same, all across the planet. It's not confined to a select few geographical areas. Science. Water management.

      Buy a copy of a TCNA manual and study it.

    • PRO
      Mark Spangler Architecture
      6 years ago

      never heard of integral tile flanges and tiles treated for water ?

    • User
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Integral tile flanges are a fairly inexpensive addition to a tub area designed to provide a water-tight install between the tub and the wall.

      @Sophie- you are almost always concerned about the substrate, in tile installs- even often certain it's not adequate, even when you can't see what lies beneath the tile work.

      I know in my most recent build that I confirmed, with my own eyes and contractor at my side, that what was spec'd for waterproofing was actually done. But do you see a lot of "skimping" on this step?

    • User
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      To the OP- yep, it doesn't look good. Others have helped you with the "why"- materials, craftsmanship, and perhaps framing issues. I have no expertise here, but GULP...

      For me- the "slop job" left with the grout is a tip-off to a lack of proper supervision of the people who installed. That, alone, is a place to question the entire job. I'm hoping that you had a clear contract and that you haven't paid yet.

      Personally, I like the niches. Not super creative, size-wise, but these are the workhorses of a lot of showers. Still, can accommodate very tall containers of, as my husband calls it- "lotions and potions and everything else- good places to put things that are reachable"

      Also- if you end up replacing, stand there like a mother hen to watch the layout/install. Good luck, and keep us posted.

    • PRO
      Mint tile Minneapolis
      6 years ago

      unfortunate chain of events

    • User
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      A totally predictable ''unfortunate chain of events.'' When a homeowner acts as their own designer and GC, yet fails to actually do the extensive months long proper research for either role, you usually do get screw-ups somewhere. This just happened to be a doozie of one. But, we see it All The Time. ''Who needs a Pro involved?? I can save that money by self designing and self contracting.''. Yup, a complete do over is a heck of a savings, right?

      Buy a TCNA manual. Read it. The next non $1.98 Tile Professional should own one too. Hire a Kitchen and Bath Designer. Then, gut it and start over. With a better design and suitable products.

    • User
      6 years ago

      Oh, Miss Sophie. You can be a harsh customer, but you always tell the truth! You used to irritate me, and now I just absorb....

    • acm
      6 years ago

      As for the exposed edges of the patterned tiles, it should have Schluyter (sp?!) edging, which is a metal strip that finishes cut edges and goes in underneath the last row of tiles. So, um, when you have it redone...


      Brag pics · More Info
      (see the edging around the window above the ledge in this picture...)

    • User
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Tile manufacturers are not making bullnose for most tile these days. 90% of the tile out there doesn't have decent bullnose available. You can't reject a perfectly good tile simply because you don't like a perfectly functional edging solution that someone just carelessly rubber stamped without any real design effort to choose something more appropriate. The matte powder coated Schluter that you color match to the tile always looks better than using pencil trim. Especially since most makers aren't making pencil trim either.

    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      6 years ago

      is there a pic of where the cement tile actually is? can we see an entire shot of the tub/shower??

      I have cement tiles on my wall and had to buy a 1" chair rail molding in a stone that matched, to edge them.

      That silicon thing (for the large grout space) around the tub is ridiculous. You mean he couldn't cut the tile to fit that?? the tiles I see are a bit out of level, but I have no idea what's under them or how flat that is. All in all, not a good tile job no matter how you look at it. The grouting in the niches are bad. Those are difficult to do and require a true artisan in tile laying to get them to look next to perfect.

      where the white tile hits the cement tile (and that gap) what exactly is that? the floor? if so, the white tile should have rested on top of the cement tile. no gap should be seen. Water is going to get trapped back in that gap.

    • PRO
      Mark Spangler Architecture
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Tatts, your comments are a bit strange. The number of niches the owner wanted is not an issue that a has part in the discussion. The tile installer should have notified the owner of the issues when he began laying out the tile work in the shower. They're the professional, not the homeowner, and it's incumbent on them to let the owners know there's an issue.

    • tatts
      6 years ago

      Mark S.: My comment was because not only is it a small space (which requires careful layout), but they also used beveled tile, further compounding the issue (requiring multiple cuts that are impossible to mesh properly when butting up to finished edges of adjacent tiles). Finally, instead of one large opening (maybe using marble shelves and surround), they made 3, which just compounded the difficulties and the number of places that cuts and alignment could be off.

      This design required far, far more skill and foresight than anyone involved had.

      Yes. The tile installer should have suggested changes. But the real problem was whoever designed and spec'd that enclosure and made the tile choices in the first place.

    • PRO
      Mark Spangler Architecture
      6 years ago

      Again the design isn't the main issue, it's installation. The tile installer was the person responsible for the installation, and should have notified the owners. That's the over riding point. There's plenty of bad design out there executed professionally and correctly. The designer should have been more careful in the selection of the tile and related details for sure.

    • User
      6 years ago

      Design encompasses material choices, When the wrong materials are picked, that lead to bad installation because they were inappropriate, that IS a major contributor to the overall issue. Like the use of very porous limestone for a shower, and then having an issue with it soaking up water and dead skin cells. Bad design isn't just about layout or an ugly paint color.

    • acm
      6 years ago

      thank you. I've mostly given up on finding bullnose, etc., for anything but the most mundane square field tile anymore. no reason a stainless edge should rust any faster than your stainless faucet!

    • tatts
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      acm: Yes, but...if you can't find an appropriate finish edge (and I clearly don't think Schluter is appropriate), then you redesign the project.

      In the photo you posted above, that raw edge could have easily been dealt with by bringing the window frame out a quarter inch or so and casing the window. Problem solved--properly--on the horizontal and vertical edges. The Schluter there is a sure sign of an afterthought.

      And if the owners like the clean, spare look? So no regular window casing? Fine. That opening could have been finished with the design and material of the cabinetry. The cabinet company would supply the stock in the matching finish.

      It's little touches like that that make a job look professional. But that starts at the design stage, not when the tile setter shows up ready to work.

    • Advisor Buffalo
      3 years ago

      The tiler had no chance from the get go. All well and good saying he should of built the niches but was that budgeted for. The thing is the customer is not always right and sometimes the customer is a douche. He’s done the best he can with what he’s been given so unfortunately you haven’t got a leg to stand on. Better prep would of resulted in a better finish

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