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Building a HomeFlooringDesign Dilemma
falusiaa

Does this look like white oak "Select" grade hardwood floors?

Mackey's MPI Inc.
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago

Please let me know if this qualifies for "Select" or not? Thanks in advance for your advice.














Featured Answer
  • PRO
    Mackey's MPI Inc.
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Here's an update to all who helped me on this thread, they admitted that the floors are not select and are ripping them up and locating the correct product for our floors. Thanks to everyone who weighed in on this for your advice!

    Comments (69)

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      What would the difference be between Rift and Quartered "Select", 7" wide 2' to 10' long hardwood floors be to this character grade be?

    • PRO
      Emerson Hardwood Floors
      6 years ago

      The picture above is from Graf Brothers, who specialize in these wider plank, unfinished engineered floors. Here is a link to their grading: https://grafbro.com/flooring/grades/ .

      Most mills will do a select grade, #1 common, and #2 common. Select being the cleanest, and #2 common having the most character. In the case of the photo above, the Graf Brothers character grade is a mix of all grades, sometimes referred to as 'mill run.' Do you know what mill your material is from? Does your contract specify select grade?

      Here's an image of the Graf Brothers select grade rift and quartersawn. You can see that there are far fewer knots and mineral streaks in the select grade.

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked Emerson Hardwood Floors
    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      My contract specifies select grade. I just spoke to the contractor who hired the installer. He says that he sent pictures to the NHWFA and this is within their guide lines for select flooring, that they say it's select. I find this very hard to believe.... He also says we can select the boards with too much character and remove them out. What about that idea? This is glued and nailed in flooring.

    • PRO
      Emerson Hardwood Floors
      6 years ago

      Can you look at the bundles, are there any markings on them? Maybe ask him to see paperwork from the distributor, or wherever the material was purchased. That should have all the specs you need.

    • suzyq53
      6 years ago

      Yes that sounds good. Ask the installer if he can get the bad ones out without damaging the good ones. Not all mills adhere to NHWFA. Some have their own standards and grades. They can call it different things too. That's why I asked about the manufacturer. We purchased some called prime. If you are using a darker stain, a lot of this "character" will go away.

    • strategery
      6 years ago

      OP, stand your ground. Ask for manufacturer rep to visit?

    • millworkman
      6 years ago

      "He also says we can select the boards with too much character and remove them out. "


      This is best done BEFORE they are installed. Doing that now removes the tongue and groove and you end up having to face nail.

    • schicksal
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Glue AND nailed? Never heard of installing that way. Glued OR nailed, yeah.

      For price differences if it still matters, give flooring.org a call. They sell pretty much everything but I've only bought long length/rift and quartersawn in clear grade from them.


      edit: the wood itself reminds me of the white oak I've bought from them but unfinished wood tends to look like other unfinished wood of the same species anyway. For whatever it's worth everything I've bought through them came from the mill to my location. No markings. High quality stuff though!

    • Sammy
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      If your contractor did, indeed, send photos to the NHWFA and he received the positive response he says he did, then he should provide you with a copy of that correspondence. BTW: Who warrantied the floor?

    • AnnKH
      6 years ago

      I'm no expert, but I'm not crazy about the installation. In your second-to-last photo, on the right side in the middle, I see 4 boards in a row where the ends are in a brick pattern. I don't know how far apart those joints are, to how they compare to the installation specs, but it looks jarring to my eye.

    • PRO
      WoodCo
      6 years ago

      This article may helpful - https://www.woodco.com/news/wood-flooring-grades/ 

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked WoodCo
    • cpartist
      6 years ago

      I just spoke to the contractor who hired the installer. He says that he sent pictures to the NHWFA and this is within their guide lines for select flooring, that they say it's select.

      Have him prove it to you with a letter from them. If not I call BS.

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked cpartist
    • Ron Natalie
      6 years ago

      Looks like FAS to me (firsts and seconds, i.e., below select).

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked Ron Natalie
    • PRO
      GannonCo
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Some of Beth's pics are NOT white oak. Every type of wood has sort of subspecies and also different cuts.

      You have a WHITE oak floor. You have a mix of different cuts. I think it is exactly what you paid for. If you were expecting a white oak floor with zero knots of defects it would cost 5x's what you paid. It also would ruin the look of the floor.

      From the pics I am assuming these are real boards or a engineered board with a 10mm or larger face. Real wood has defects and people have to understand this. In todays world where we see these over engineered over stained wood we are starting to think that is quality and the REAL wood is the fake cheaper version.

      You choose white oak and it is a beautiful floor especially when filled and finished. The variances between boards is what gives it it's individual character. If you wanted a wood with less character then you should have chosen RED oak which is shown in the pics with zero knots showing and 1/2 the price.

      Its REAL WOOD it will have defects. If you wanted fake wood you could have saved a bundle and had it. There are NO defects in those boards that would cause them to be rated lower then they are. People spend some time in a lumber yard selecting wood before we make comments. Where do you expect to get a thousand boards with the exact grain?

      YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL floor that is REAL wood not laminate. Please lets stop the nonsense that real wood that look like its species is cheaper.

    • schicksal
      6 years ago

      "If you were expecting a white oak floor with zero knots of defects it would cost 5x's what you paid. It also would ruin the look of the floor."


      We'll have to agree to disagree with that ruining the look of the floor. Depending on what kind of look you're going for it could fit the room perfectly.

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked schicksal
    • PRO
      JudyG Designs
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      Hello! Everyone who has commented:

      Why are you asking houzz? Were you the installer and now your client is questioning?

      https://www.houzz.com/pro/falusiaa/mackeys-mpi-inc

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked JudyG Designs
    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      Wannabath how do you know what I paid for the floor? I paid for white oak rift and quartered select and asked for a clean linear modern looking floor. That's not what I got and I looked at plenty of examples of that online before I ordered "select".


      JudyG Designs, No we are the buyer, someone is building this house for us and it is a long story but it is a community where there is only 1 builder grandfathered in the bi-laws that's in bed with the developer that's allowed to build here so we had to have him build our house... and it's been a literal nightmare for us doing so, but thanks for asking.

    • suzyq53
      6 years ago

      I think wannabath is mistaken in saying that the same grade red oak costs half the price. That has not been my experience at all. The price is very similar.

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked suzyq53
    • Ron Natalie
      6 years ago

      I disagree with some of the statements. SELECT grade oak should have little or no knots or other defects. It's a hair below clear (which will have nearly none, having only a few pin holes allowed) and should be relatively uniform in character.

      The pictures in the origianl post show No. 2 common (or perhaps a mixture of 1 and 2).

      It is standard hardwood grading. What was shown is NOT select grade.

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked Ron Natalie
    • PRO
      Beth H. :
      6 years ago

      wannabath,,,all but two of the pics are white oak. the ones w/the numbers are white. And if he paid for select, then he should get select. yes the floor is nice looking but is that the floor he paid for?? i'm guess it's not all select. I would personally contact the company myself and get the answers for myself.

      or as was mentioned, ask to see proof from you GC or installer, that this is acceptable. I don't think it is. Just call the company yourself and speak to a manager and quit guessing.

      Mackey's MPI Inc. thanked Beth H. :
    • just_janni
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      I am really glad you are getting what you paid for.

      And really - doesn't this just chap your butt? Ya don't wonder why things are so expensive when there's a decent amount of "tear it out and do it over again" built into projects - and that just appears to be the norm!

      And then to have them try to talk you into it that it was the floor (gaslight much?), is just as bad.

    • nicolediane
      6 years ago

      Did the contractor admit he originally lied?

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      jannicone, I agree totally. Gaslight me is exactly what I felt they were trying to do. And not sure if there was tear it out money in the budget, I think they will be loosing on this deal but I feel like I sent enough info to them that they knew I wasn't backing down.

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      2014diane, No he didn't he just said that he doesn't know enough about what this floor should look like and after he saw all the info I sent him he decided it wasn't what I paid for. However it makes me mad that he glosses over the fact that he said the NWFA "saw pictures and said it was select". Because I sent nwfa pictures and they said it wasn't. I actually even hired an inspector from the NWFA to come do a report for me but the contractor doesn't know that yet.

    • AnnKH
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      jannicone, it's not just the waste of money, but the waste of resources. I hate to see perfectly good materials (and the floor was perfectly good, just not for the OP) going in the trash.

    • just_janni
      6 years ago

      AnnKH - I completely agree - you'd like to think that perhaps if could have been salvaged and brought to Habitat for Humanity or a reclamation type place - but...... that would assume that someone ripping it out would take any kind of care to do it - and considering they are probably pissed to have to do it - you can pretty much assume that it got destroyed in the process and sent to the landfill. A terrible waste - on so many fronts.

      I am glad that Mackey's is getting what he/she wanted and paid for - but sad that it came about like this.

      And while they will probably lose money on this deal, they will make it up the next time they bid a job / several jobs, and overall they have to make money - so the more stupid mistakes any contractor makes, the more they have to compensate for that in their estimates. You'd think the easier solution would be more care / supervision etc - but that isn't how it seems to go.

    • millworkman
      6 years ago

      "I am glad that Mackey's is getting what he/she wanted and paid for - but sad that it came about like this."


      Hopefully, the new flooring is not properly installed "yet". Hopefully the gaslight has been extinguised but they tried it once. I would see what they would offer you on a credit, if it is enough take it and run. If they make you close enough to whole you may be better off in the long run. The flooring you have while not what you selected is nice and if you get it for dam near nothing..........................

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      Yeah I agree in the waste but it was not like what was supposed to be there so it is what it is.

      There is no way to salvage and donate it, these were 7" wide boards glued and nailed to a wood subfloor so they are cutting them and ripping them out, the glue makes it impossible.

      Millworkman it was a nice floor I agree but it has a country feel to it and our house is modern so it looks out of place, thus why I ordered select rift and quartered. Now they are having a hard time locating new material so who knows how long this will hold the whole build up.

    • suzyq53
      6 years ago

      Du Chateau has some great prefinished hard waxed white oak floors with a very refined modern look.

    • DLM2000-GW
      6 years ago

      Mackey's MPI - we had to source our select white oak flooring from Chicago (we're in NC) and freight it in, so expand your search if you can't find it close.

    • millworkman
      6 years ago

      My concern mainly is the redo is on their dime and they already tried to gaspipe you once.......................

    • nirvanaav
      6 years ago

      Rework is almost never as good as first work.

    • User
      6 years ago

      I’d have concerns over the subfloor condition after removing glued down boards. They may need to replace that too. Be sure to inspect it before anything else goes in.

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      Yes they are replacing the subfloors because they are all ripped up due to the glue.

    • 293summer
      6 years ago

      What a shame! I know the floors don't work for you, but they are gorgeous. Do you happen to know what brand/color they are by chance? Thanks!

    • suzyq53
      6 years ago

      How are you going to finish it once you get the select in?

    • strategery
      6 years ago

      This is so sad. I would need a written explanation from the person responsible.

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      6 years ago
      last modified: 6 years ago

      293summer they are unfinished white oak the Mill is maxwell.

      suzyq53 we still haven't decided on the finish but are leaning towards a whitewash something like below....or maybe fumed finish or a medium brown.

    • 293summer
      6 years ago

      Thanks for the info! Your inspiration flooring is gorgeous as well!

    • J. Clark
      4 years ago

      @Mackey's MPI Inc. I know this thread is a few years old now but did you end up getting your floors reinstalled? We're looking at having this exact same floor installed in our home- Maxwell unfinished engineered white oak in select grade. Have you been happy with it? Did you apply a stain or go with the natural finish? Like you, we are opting for a bit more modern and don't want the knots and character defects that make it a little more rustic. Thanks!

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      4 years ago

      Hi, Yes we had them reinstalled and they are the rift and quartered select white oak. I love my floors but the company and that mill were not honest and I wouldn't use them again for sure. We had to go through a lot of trouble, mess and time to get them right. We did a combo finish 50/50 in ebony and jacobean with a satin finish.




    • chispa
      4 years ago

      The floors look great.

      You described your house as modern in a previous post ... from your photos your house is actually very traditional with some Florida specific architecture. The more uniform floors are a better look than a more rustic floor would have been.

    • ILoveRed
      4 years ago

      Your house is beautiful and I would agree with Chispa that it is fairly traditional As well. Your floors turned out gorgeous as well.


      im still surprised at how much I loved the original floors that were torn out that look so much like my Live Sawn White Oak floors. But I understand that this is not the look you were after and I’m glad you were finally satisfied with what you got.

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      4 years ago

      Thank you. What I meant when I said modern was not clear...I meant that I'm wasn't going for a farmhouse/country look. My house is kind of transitional/ traditional I agree.

    • suzyq53
      4 years ago

      Whatever you call it, its very pretty. Those little doggies are so cute!

    • nini804
      4 years ago

      What a beautiful, elegant home!

    • J. Clark
      4 years ago

      @Mackey's MPI Inc. your floors and home design are stunning, thanks for sharing pics! To clarify, you're saying that Maxwell (the actual floor manufacturer) was not honest or are you referring to the retailer you purchased them through? or both? Ugh, this worries because those are the exact floors I fell in love with, Maxwell rift and quartered select white oak, but now I'm not so sure...

    • J. Clark
      4 years ago

      @Mackey's MPI Inc. one more question that is off topic, but do you know who the manufacturer of your patio doors are? We are looking to do something similar and having a harder time finding the black on black. Western seems to be a good brand but haven't done a ton of research on this yet.

    • PRO
      Mackey's MPI Inc.
      Original Author
      4 years ago

      Yes they were both not honest and tried passing off substandard , different quality flooring for select rift and quartered. My patio doors are Jeld-Wen doors they are a super dark bronze but look the closest we could get to black.

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