Gaps in LVP - what is considered acceptable?
Guy is coming in the morning to look at the lousy job the installer did, and I was looking to see what else might be wrong, and noticed a lot of gaps. This is a glue-down vinyl LVP - Armstrong Vivero.
Comments (15)
Chessie
Original Author5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoMost of these are under the sink, or by the back door or the garage door - the very worst places to have gaps. And there are some places where the LVT has not even adhered properly - it's actually sticking up. I am so disgusted right now.
These last two show what I consider to be a proper fit.
Am I being unreasonable to expect that on the entire floor?
Chessie
Original Author5 years agoWell I sent these pictures to Armstrong. And this is definitely an installation problem. These gaps are not the intended presentation of this product. Looks like this is going to be a complete redo.
PROCinar Interiors, Inc.
5 years agoYep, they're going to need to pull and relay. Should have also used a 50lb roller after product was laid.
Chessie
Original Author5 years agoCinar Interiors, Inc., hey just curious - since I really don't know the process - how do they get all that adhesive off the floor to start over? I don't even know if they can pull this stuff up easily to reuse it - they might have to order new flooring. Oy vey this is so frustrating. It's only 11 am and I feel like I need a drink just thinking about it!
- PRO
Cinar Interiors, Inc.
5 years agoThey'll have to use a scrapper blade to get up the glue. Comes up easier if you're on concrete.
Chessie thanked Cinar Interiors, Inc. Chessie
Original Author5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoYeah no concrete - this is over old sheet vinyl over plywood subfloor. I am tempted to ask for a refund of what I have paid so far, and just find another company to start over. At this point, I just don't know if they can even do this job. This installer was supposedly their "best guy"! What a JOKE.
SJ McCarthy
5 years agoGlue down LVP over old sheet vinyl...hmmmm. Technically this *CAN be done (as in it is allowed) but it is a tricky install.
The old vinyl MUST BE well adhered to the substrate AND perfectly CLEAN of ANY old cleaner/residue (wax being the BIGGEST issue of all).
How was the old vinyl prepared? What type of cleaning/buffing/roughing up of the sheet vinyl did they do BEFORE working the adhesive? Was the adhesive they used appropriate for going over top of old vinyl (some are....some aren't)?
Yes I would say the lack of weighted roller is an issue. And the question about the trowel for the glue is another concern....but my BIGGEST issue is with the old vinyl. This can throw a kink in even the BEST laid floor.
Why was the sheet vinyl allowed to stay?
Chessie
Original Author5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoThe old sheet final was allowed to stay because it was never considered to be a problem. it was in great condition - flat, very minor texture, no holes rips or gaps. And very well adhered - it was a full glue down. It was very clean too, I cleaned it the night before. Scrubbed and rinsed it with water. If a single one of the 5 companies that bid the job had even suggested pulling up the vinyl, I certainly would have considered it. But these are all well known local flooring companies, and none of them even suggested doing that. I’m not a pro, obviously. But I don’t believe the vinyl floor underneath has anything to do with this issue. This guy had adhesive coming up between the seams, oozing out the seams. He claimed that it was because because it was so humid outside, which is of course nonsense, I have a conditioned crawlspace, and the humidity in my home stays at about 45 this time of year. I believe he did not let the adhesive dry to a tack, which is from what I’ve read, what you’re supposed to do. He put it down wet, and that was why he wound up with glue all over the planks as he went. And then of course he did not clean up as he went. As far as I’m concerned, he was incompetent.
How the floor was prepared and what kind of adhesive they used - I have to assume that they took the proper steps and used the correct materials. That’s what I paid them to do - floor prep and materials and installation. It was for a complete installation. We didn’t leave off anything to get a a better price If that is what you are implying. This was the top bid. Well over any other companies bid. What is my question and what I asked at the beginning of this thread, is was about the gaps in the vinyl. My question has been answered by Armstrong because I sent the pictures to them. There are no gaps that are considered acceptable in this product. And it is installer error.User
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoOld sheet vinyl is quite flexible. It can stretch and bridge the bumps and birdbaths in the subfloor below.
First order of the day is to put a 6’ level on the floor and find those humps and bird baths. You, the homeowner needs to do that. That should have been done first thing, before even investigating any new flooring. You have to know what you’re starting with, to plan the route to the end result.
If the subfloor is not flat, as that job seems to indicate, then it has to be made flat before anything new goes down. That means removing the vinyl and underlayment, and starting over. The subfloor is made flat. Only then is it ready for flooring. Of any kind, at that point. But a clean, flat, subfloor, is where all installations of anything start.
Your Lowball installer didn’t give you a full job price. He gave you an install only price. That didn’t include removing the vinyl and underlayment and starting over.
Chessie
Original Author5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoFloor is level - YES I checked it. I did all that after doing my research. It's a flat floor no "birdbaths and bumps". (The sheet vinyl is NOT a cushioned - so that is not an issue). But honestly, I don't believe that IS my job to ensure that. I did it, because of the incompetence I keep seeing in the trades now. I just don't have any faith in them. And figuring what is involved/needed - that is the job of the company I hire. If I hire a company to put in a new floor - THEY are responsible for determining what is needed. I discussed this install with ARMSTRONG prior to even getting estimates. Why would anyone think that flooring professionals should NOT be responsible for knowing what to do? And as I stated earlier, there WAS NO LOWBALL installer. Just an idiot one, unfortunately. This was the HIGHEST bid of all the 5 that I got. And this was 275 sf install - a very small job. Seriously - just no excuse for the price they charged. The most ridiculous part of it is that this was the ONLY "Armstrong Certified Installer" in the area. And obviously I did not get anyone with that certification, in my kitchen. I don't think it will take too long before that certification is reviewed and probably revoked.
All that said, I expect the only way to fix this is to rip it all out, and go down to the subfloor. It will be an interesting discussion with the company tomorrow. Right now, I really feel like the best option is to ask for my money back (basic install instructions were not followed end-seam minimums were disregarded - and those are on the back of the box!!) and have a different company come out and look at it. But finding someone that knows what the hell they are doing - I swear I am wondering how you even do that these days.
Chessie
Original Author5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoUPDATE.
So the guy came this morning and was pretty surprised at the poor work that was done. He took pictures as I went over the job with him. He kept saying that they "would make it right" but I explained that I had no faith that the company could provide the labor necessary to redo my floor, correctly, and asked for my money back, to start over. This means a more expensive job of course - unless I and my BF do it - but I don't know where I would find the time. He said he had to go back to the owners and figure out what could be done, and promised that I would be happy with the outcome no matter what. He was really very nice, and I did appreciate that.
The owner (one of them - it's owned by 2 brothers) called about an hour later and apologized profusely, and stated that this installer was a subcontractor that had done good work on 2 previous jobs, but clearly they made a mistake using him - they won't use him again. He said that he would refund my money if that is what I wanted, but what he really wanted to do was to show me that they could install this floor perfectly, and ensure that I was happy with it. It's a family-owned business, and he seemed very sincere, and stated that he could not afford to have an unhappy customer - it was not how he did business. He wants to do the floor himself, personally, with the project manager there with him. He said that he personally has done many of these floors and is completely qualified and skilled in this kind of work, and he wants me to allow him to correct their mistake and provide me with complete satisfaction.
He said they will not re-use any of the material, will purchase all new, and go down to the subfloor if needed, and will also get in touch with Armstrong to discuss any other underlayment suggested (Armstrong actually suggested a product to me - I'm not sure about it, but I mentioned it to the owner and he wants to investigate). I don't know if the fact that I contacted Armstrong had any impact on him, or if he really is just that customer-service oriented, but I wound up deciding to allow him the chance to correct their mistake. I really feel that after talking to him, that now there is no company more motivated to correctly install my floor, than this one.
It will be at least a month that I will have to live with this floor now as I have no option to take any time off until the 2nd week of August. I sure hope I made the right decision.
- PRO
Cinar Interiors, Inc.
5 years agoGood deal on allowing them the opportunity to fix it for you. Most family owned and operated business (like us) take pride in our work. Good luck and keep us in the loop!
Chessie thanked Cinar Interiors, Inc. 
PRORudio Designz
5 years agoThought I'd chime in . Leaving the existing one layer of vinyl under has many advantages for the homeowner.When on concrete is acts as a nice moisture barrier , upstairs on a subloor is offers an acoustic cushining as well as a smoothness to the glue down product. Imprefections are not as likely to telegraph through and the underfoot is much nicer . Much luck with your replacement. you have a good company to work with. just FYI regarding gapping. you will see some expansion and. contraction normal gapping with temperatur change especially extreme hot & cold temps.
take care, Dawn
Cinar Interiors, Inc.