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Design Dilemma
djoralemon

Concrete Shower Pan vs Cultured Marble Shower Pan Plus Waterproofing

Sandi J
10 years ago
We have ripped out a corner shower built in a 1968 pier and beam home. This shower had a leak and was replaced 10 years ago by the previous owner. The repair was subpar and the subfloor is being replaced for a second time. The shower pan was concrete and saturated with water.

Does a cultured marble shower pan provide a more waterproof solution than a concrete shower pan with tile?

Additionally, why isn't it recommended to install a waterproof membrane along the entire wall of the shower instead of just a few inches above the pan? Our shower leaked because of cracked tiles above the waterproof membrane. I want to make sure this shower doesn't leak a 3rd time.

Thank you!
Featured Answer
  • PRO
    Brickwood Builders, Inc.
    10 years ago
    I personally don't care for preformed shower pans with either matching wall inserts or a tile wall. The reason is that we go into many homes and the complaint is that there is mold growing at all of the seams/joints. The reason is that the seals break over time and they are not maintained by homeowners. Once they start to go, dampness (not soaking wet) gets inside and mold starts to grow. Mold cannot be treated and killed from the outside - you have to get to the source. So we take a lot of these units out.

    We prefer tile showers. We install a drain with a secondary drain system. We install the first sloped floor surface from shower mud (not cement) then we install the flexible shower pan (liner) and it extends several inches up the wall. We use durock or permabase on the walls up to the ceiling (we generally tile to the ceiling or just below a crown molding if there is one) and down over the flexible liner. We then install the second sloped floor on top of the liner - again a shower mud product is used. We also use the floor mud product on the curbs and on the shower seat, if there is one. We use hydroban waterproofing on the floor, on the curb, on the walls up to 8' and on the floor outside the shower (assuming it is also going to be tile). Then we tile and we seal the grout and/or the tile if needed.

    We have been doing this for 10 years and have never had a single call back for leaks.

    Comments (35)

    • macyjean
      10 years ago
      last modified: 10 years ago
      Hi. Having been through a leaking shower repair I feel for you. "I want to make sure this shower doesn't leak a 3rd time." Oh yes!

      What country are you in? Since finding various online building/renovating websites I have learned how much regulations, materials, etc can vary from one country to another. If a shower consists of tiles over concrete the concrete must be waterproofed. How far the waterproofing extends is a long story. How did you ascertain the leak was from cracked tiles on the wall?
      Sandi J thanked macyjean
    • alwaysdesigning
      10 years ago
      There is a certain type of backerboard to be used with tiles in a shower; make sure you have that backing all the tiles. Good luck
      http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,218790,00.html
      Sandi J thanked alwaysdesigning
    • Lynne Mysliwiec
      10 years ago
      You might want to consider a Schluter Kerdi shower pan kit to waterproof the shower. Use kerdi-board and the kerdi waterproofing tape. If you're installing a tile floor, you'll want to install an anti-fracture membrane (ditra) that is edged with kerdi waterproofing strips to prevent pooled water on the floor to penetrate the floor or wick up the walls. Schluter says that their waterproofing kits are so good you can use them without even installing tile. I don't know about that, but it's the modern way to prevent leaks.

      Make sure you also install a proper vapor barrier on the INTERIOR side of cold walls before installing moisture-resistant wall board under non-tiled surfaces to prevent the warm damp air from inside the bathroom to penetrate into the insulation and then condense out, creating mold and mildew problems.

      Making sure the floor is level and that tile is installed flat is critical to getting a good seal between the toilet and floor with no rocking. Rot under the toilet is as bad as a rotted shower.
      Sandi J thanked Lynne Mysliwiec
    • macyjean
      10 years ago
      A couple of things. Yes, the walls behind the tiling aren't regular wall sheeting but special wet area sheeting (I'm avoiding specific names because it varies geographically). I'm confused about "tile is installed flat", everything I've seen about it talks about the importance of the right slope?
      Sandi J thanked macyjean
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      10 years ago
      Hello again and thank you to everyone for the advice. I am in Texas, USA. We have the wall down to stud and subfloor (which we have to replace). The studs will be reinforced and planed to be level and ready for cement board on the walls for tile. I know it was leaking from the cracked tile because I sprayed water on the cracked tiles while a contractor was underneath the house watching the stream of water run down right below that shower wall.

      I have been looking at a combination of RedGard, which is a waterproofing coating WITH a membrane such as Kerde, Hydro Ban or NobleSeal. I saw a demonstration of waterproofing a shower where it was recommended to run the membrane the entire length of the shower. I believe I saw this on the HGTV website. I've watched several more videos made by different contractors since then, but not one of them has placed the membrane above 10 inches from the floor. My inclination is to use the RedGard all over as well as the membrane from floor to ceiling.

      Regarding the shower pan...we know to use the right slope for proper drainage and to slope the threshold as well when using a concrete shower pan. The comments I've seen about preformed shower pans has been negative, but I haven't seen comments about the durability of cultured marble shower pans from anyone other than cultured marble contractors. I had one put in a shower in a previous house many moons ago, but moved a couple years later, so I don't know how well it held up. It looked fantastic but was VERY expensive. I didn't have to tile over it, which saves some time, effort and money to offset that cost. I'm trying to determine if this expensive solution is durable and worth the expense.
    • mfwolfe
      10 years ago
      If you truly want something that doesn't ever leak, get a one piece plastic shower. I know, it isn't beautiful. when the experts say, make sure it is flat, they mean it must stay flat forever in order to not leak. This is a problem since houses do settle. We tried for twenty years to make a tile shower that didn't leak. We finally put in the one piece plastic and never had another problem.
      Sandi J thanked mfwolfe
    • PRO
      Adrian J. Naquin Interior Design L.L.C.
      10 years ago
      I would recommend a first rate manf> ( such as Kohler) who make a shower receptor in fiberglass it will never leak and looks pretty good ( as most people will focus on the shower tiled walls - or consider a custom built pan with tile would look better but use a trained professional to build it to TCNA standards - including water membrane up the wall
      not a DIY project.
      Sandi J thanked Adrian J. Naquin Interior Design L.L.C.
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      10 years ago
      Thanks everyone. I will research the suggestions. The silence regarding a custom cultured marble shower pan (built by a pro) is noted. Is this not recommended?
    • Denita
      10 years ago
      Sandi
      Here is another resource for you that one of the other posters had recommended a while ago. This particular forum has experts in the specific areas you are questioning. Here is the link to the site for exploration. http://www.johnbridge.com/
      Sandi J thanked Denita
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      10 years ago
      Hello everyone. I have been using all of your comments to do more research. Every one of them helped me become better informed. Your advice is a blessing. This is good stuff!

      macymacmaples...I think Lynne was referring to tiling flat underneath the toilet rather than a shower, and was explaining how leakage due to poor tiling can be a problem there as well. We are looking into the sheeting, and Adrian and Deborah have reinforced my instinct to use it up the entire wall.

      alwaysdesigning...my husband has been referring to cement board which may be the same thing as backerboard, but I will have to check the labels to make sure. That article was great and echoed the issue some of Deborah's clients have had.

      Lynne...your comment about Kerdi shower systems reminded me I had an installation DVD to look at that I received from one of my local flooring stores. I had forgotten about it until your comment. It is a Kerdi Systems DVD! Getting the right slope will be important and I know there's a company here that uses it. We will be replacing the flooring under the toilet as well and will make sure that part of the floor does not have a slope. I am also taking note of the vapor barrier in addition to the moister barrier.

      mfwolfe...You have a good point, and I thought about a plastic shower, but I think I really have my heart set on a modern tiled shower. This is a very small master bath and I was hoping to add a couple higher end updates to make it more appealing.

      Adrian...The TCNA reference is great. I did not know where to find the standards. I do want to tile over the pan since I won't be using a cultured marble one because I want the room to look designed and not just put together.

      Denita...That is a great resource link. I haven't had time to do it justice yet, but I will. The site even has a link to a Kerdi ebook about shower building.

      Deborah...your explanation about why you don't like preforms was very clear. I get it now! I did not even know seals needed to be maintained. I think of granite needing to be sealed and resealed, but not grout and caulking (after the initial seal). Both you and Lynne have mentioned how mold and mildew can get in the walls without have direct wetness...did not know that. I will also make sure we understand the two fold drainage system. I think I saw a video last night demonstrating what you described, so I am starting to wrap my brain around it. It is so funny that you mentioned the tile outside the shower. The grout around the current tile outside our shower looks like it is mildewing from beneath. We are concerned our subfloor may be damaged there as well but have not yet pulled that tile up. I will be making generous use of the hydroban product both in and around the shower (and maybe the toilet area too).

      Thanks to all of you for your helpful comments. God bless.
    • PRO
      Labra Design Build
      10 years ago
      Another vote for the Kerdi system. It waterproofs the entire shower.
    • loves2read
      9 years ago
      So what did you finally do for this shower build?

      We are trying to find someone in to do master bath remodel for FL vacation house and after talking to 4 contractors who have great references apparently no one does any waterproofing--just cement board behind the tile---which won't work for me...
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      9 years ago
      Hello Loves2read. Definitely WATERPROOF! Our job has not been completed yet. My husband is only able to work on it one day a week and the damage done by the leak extended to the subfloor and beams of the house. He has ripped out wall tiles from around the entire room cemented on with wire mesh since 1968, removed old insulation and rotted wood, replaced and shored up foundation beams (foundation expert had to be brought in to make sure it was sound) and replaced the subfloor. Next, he will be updating outdated plumbing that had to be removed to replace the beams. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE SHOWER IS BUILT WITH WATERPROOFING UP ONLY ABOUT TWO FEET FROM THE FLOOR.

      After talking with several contractors, I still want my husband to use the Kerdi system. Although my husband is confident with all of the other work, he is not convinced he can do the shower pan by himself; I, however, have full confidence in him. I have not had luck finding a contractor that wants to do just the shower pan. They want to do the entire shower or not at all, and I can’t blame them. However, it is more than we can afford. I have had a couple contractors tell me they waterproof floor to ceiling and another tell me he doesn’t waterproof at all. It all depends on who you talk to. Every contractor that I talked to is A rated on Angie’s List, yet, philosophies vary. I even had one tell me a shower isn’t expected to last more than ten years. I don’t agree with that statement at all, but then again, I’m not a contractor…just the homeowner. We found it helpful to understand our city’s code requirements for bathroom remodeling.

      I have also paid a lot of attention to the type of tile to put in as well. This also affects the moisture level. Natural stone requires regular maintenance because it is porous and has to be sealed often. Porcelain seems to be the most durable for the floor but glass and ceramic are fine for the walls. Grout affects your moisture as well. There is a brand of grout called Fusion Pro that already has the sealant mixed in with it. This is not the kind you buy and then mix sealant into (that one still has to be sealed periodically); it does not ever require sealing because it is part of the compound. It is more expensive than the other grout, but worth the cost because of the protection it provides. I am sure there are other brands out there, but this brand was the choice of several of the contractors and the tile companies in our area.

      I wish you well in your project. I'm sure you'll find a contractor that will meet your standards. Be picky because it is your house! Please send pictures if you are able. I would love to see it.
    • loves2read
      9 years ago
      Sandi--I grew up in Kingsbury and my husband in Luling (go City Market BBQ). We have house in DFW area and vacation house in FL...we had previous home in TX remodeled by guy who had to tear out the original shower--was horribly built--drain in tile floor did not really meet the floor drain--water pooled for decades...
      Termites in the wall and under the tub (because the builder did not add tar or mortar to seal the raw earth...
      The guy we hired to do the remodel was not "licensed" but he knew his stuff--built me a waterproof shower w/shower pan he poured/sloped himself...
      Used a waterproof sealer over the cement board and shower pan once it had cured...like a rubber/silicone paint...all over the shower stall--even ceiling...
      When he was done you could have used a fire hose but no water was getting behind that sealer...

      Now we need to have master bath in FL house redone--that original shower stall has failing tiles from water behind and only drywall--no water proofing done since was built in 1978.
      We have talked to 4 contractors--two with excellent ratings on Angie's List, one recommended by top electrician we used after we bought the house, and another from company the sellers used when they did kitchen remodel that is well-regarded in Sarasota area.
      NONE of them apparently built a shower with waterproofing system...so I am going to call the local DalTile store and see if they have recommendations for local tile people...
      My TX contractor says that it costs about 150$ to waterproof shower using the paint alone--no Kerdi system--but it is time as much as anything since you can't rush doing the waterproofing--
      have to allow for stuff to cure before you install and then wait for it to dry--
      Time is money to most contractors and people don't want to pay for those upcharges...
    • PRO
      User
      9 years ago
      if you have a bathroom to equip what about installing a granite shower base or a small vessel sink for your cocoon dream space project ? that material is perfect and has an amazing look - feel the honed finish under your feet

      http://www.livingroc.net/

      https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.565284790267751.1073741887.465333626929535&type=1
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      9 years ago
      Thank you. I'm not sure how I feel about granite in the shower because it is porous but that sure is a pretty shower pan.
    • PRO
      User
      9 years ago
      we sell that product for 10 years in France never heard of any issue , they just love white vinegar to remove white stains sometime

      https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.547842882011942.1073741861.465333626929535&type=1
    • PRO
      User
      9 years ago
      the link our clients' portfolio
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      9 years ago
      We have chosen to use the Kerdi prefab pan along with the Kerdi waterproofing system. Kerdi also makes a mud pan but we are not going to use that one. The prefab is ready to cut to size based on where your drain is located and is presloped to save time and effort. It comes with the 4x4 curb that is also ready for tile (after waterproofing). These will last longer than the mud. Now, if I could just get it put in! Wiring for the new lighting above the shower and toilet have to be completed next. I am missing my shower.

      The gray/white 12x12's will be for the floor (Daltile EQ10); the white 3x12 glass tile from Lowe's will be set in a stacked pattern for the shower; the Cepac classic round in cotton will be the shower floor. All of these are very affordable. I have not decided how far to extend the shower tile yet. I can extend it on the entire wall or find a decorative border for it.
    • Barbara Eagleson
      9 years ago
      Well I'm up to my ears in this now myself. I have researched for days, and if I was in the USA, I wouldn't hesitate to get my shower basin from KBRS. Go and have a look. What I discovered, after spending $2200.00 on an install of a AQUA Glass, Sterling Shower system, which had an acrylic base (price tag of the base was $200.00 and it was the base with the package, that 2.5 years later, with normal use THERE IS AN Non- reparable crack in the base. Now this shower was built in! Plumbing and everything was new. NOW here in Canada, the warranty is ONLY 2 years. Looking at all the complaints on the internet from HUNDREDS of people, it doesn't matter the manufacturer, Mirolin, Krohler, Sterling....who cares who, NONE OF THESE THINGS HAVE A WARRANTY that's worth anything. The base of your shower, is what everything rests on. So...never buy an acrylic base on a shower that you are using daily.....then you have the leaks UNDER THE FLOOR to deal with, because the water is lying below the drain! So....spend more money the 1st and ONLY TIME, and do one of these options: buy the Shuter-Keri shower kit, which is GUARANTEED never to leak, or buy a tile-able leak proof shower basin, and then tile, or breakdown and buy just 1x KBRS system (which I can't do because our dollar is so bad, and delivery is so high) or go to GRANITE, or MARBLE one piece.
      I'm beside myself, and have to tear the whole thing out, and MIROLIN who runs the warranty for MASCO here in Canada, who distributes for Aqua Glass/Sterling Showers, says some baloney about only a 2 year warranty when in the States its 3-5 years. You can tell I'm upset!! This is my shower, and you can see the crack between the duct tape and shower squeegee.
    • beckysimpson1
      9 years ago
      @Living'ROC USA, That shower pan looks like it has no drip rail. What keeps the water from going under the bottom edge of the tile wall, into the wall?
    • Barbara Eagleson
      9 years ago
      Oh it's there! The floor piece goes up behind the wall, by about 3" or more. I have no problems there. It's the crack in the base. It's only 2.5 years old and the right side of the shower is only 5" from the wall. Now this WHOLE thing has to be dis-assembled, and taken out of the bathroom so the base can be changed. I might have to take a wall out. The point being, don't by a base make of this! NONE of them last! You can see the crack between the duct tape marker and the squeegee. Before the crack appeared it got soft underneath, and the pressure with no support causes the crack.
    • beckysimpson1
      9 years ago
      @Barbara, That's such a pain. The pan is the most important part. It's a crime to make a cheapo one. Thanks, I will avoid Acrylic altogether. Yours was the brand, Sterling? model, Aqua Glass? I wish I could get a cast iron pan, but it's 4 inches too wide.
    • PRO
      User
      9 years ago
      @becky https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.547842882011942.1073741861.465333626929535&type=3
    • PRO
      Hive Architecture By Becky Alexis
      9 years ago

      Schluter shower systems are 100% my preferred water-proofing / vapor-proof product for floors, shower pans and tile walls. So easy to install, and never ever mold growing anywhere! Check it out. Architect & builder.

    • lwpatt
      8 years ago

      I have the prefabricated marble shower floors in two of my bathrooms in my thirty years house (I've owned for 20 years). I have never had an issue with either leaking. I am planning on renovating the bathroom and making the showers bigger, so I am considering going to a mud or Kerdi system, but still think I would rather have what I currently have. I am not sold on anything yet. will research the links in this thread. I think the reason you did not have much response about the marble is that it is more expensive and higher than most new builder grade of typical construction material. Let me know what you ultimately went with and if you are happy with your choice. Thank you


    • Judy Hotchkiss
      8 years ago
      last modified: 8 years ago

      I just read an entire 2012 thread on this site about using cultured marble shower pans. It was very encouraging. We used Acrylic ones (one of them a Jacuzzi brand, and one Ameritech from Lowes), in a B&B for 18 years and they performed beautifully as did one in my personal space. One guest shoer had an acrylic pan and cultured marble walls--loved it.

      NOW, I'm considering a cultured marble or cultured granite one for my hme because THAT TYPE PAN DOES NOT LEAK. The house we just bought has a tiled shower and I can see the caulk pulling away, feel the tile not level and see some damage on the floor in the room next door. There is NO upside to a tiled shower over the long haul. They may leak and some tiles are hard to clean.

      The weakest point is always where grout or caulk lines. The ONLY grout I have ever been happy with probably isn't still on the market--it was a sanded epoxy grout from Lowes. (Pretty much just mixed colored sand and gooey epoxy together.) The darn stuff was the biggest bear in the world to install (especially when the bathroom does not yet have running water so you can wash up as you go--and quickly), but, it never fell out, never leaked and never molded. Since that doesn't seem to be around "any more," the next best thing is to have as few joints as possible.

      I'm going to rip out the current tile shower and use a custom "cultured" pan and cultured walls (or Corian, Silestone or whatever). You could also have one fabricated from Corian just like a custom sink--but go direct to the fabricator because the mark up from big box stores is killer.

      Please search for the conversion elsewhere on houzz.com--all were homeowners, not salesman.

      PS concerning cracks: our all-in-one Kohler acrylic shower only cracked after about 19 years of daily use (and we were able to assess the damage from a closet so know exactly what went wrong). The pans in the B&B are all intact after 18+ years. But, we KNEW to put a bed of sheetrock mud under each one. Acrylic pans are fine; throw away your Comet cleanser, SoftScrub and Scotchbrite pads!!!! The most abrasive thing allowed near them should be Magic Erasers--and then only on an infrequent basis. Use a sponge and Tilex produces or nylon woven pad. We also always used soap bars that were either "beauty bars" or glycerine soap--not regular ol' soap (which forms more scum by its formulation). Or, just use vingear!

    • msjbhall
      7 years ago

      In my first home I had a concrete pan in the master bathroom and it worked just fine until I ruined it by cleaning it with a caustic cleaner. I sprayed it on the edges of the pan where it was getting moldy and got busy doing something else before rinsing it off. Apparently I stripped the sealant/waterproofing from the concrete pan. Later that month I noticed that the baseboard was swelling on other side of the shared wall in my bedroom, the rug was damp (the house was on a slab), and the legs of my antique dresser were water stained. Before I made the connection, I had used the same product on the bathtub and etched the porcelain right off because I did not rinse it off immediately. Tough lesson. This was over 20 years ago, and maybe there are kinder products on the market now, but I believe back then it was X-14.

    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      6 years ago
      3 plus years later...the bathroom is finally done except for a couple of punchlist items. We ended up with a walk in shower. I am very pleased with the results.
    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      6 years ago

      Great! You did a lot of homework - hope you enjoy your bath for a long time!

    • pat_ignacio_tan
      6 years ago
      Sandi - what material did you use for the shower floor? It looks like you changed it from your original choice
    • Sandi J
      Original Author
      6 years ago

      Hello. Thank you for asking. Yes, I did change my tile choice. We went with 12 x 24 porcelain Haut Monde Glitterati Granite. The shower floor is the same time style and color in a 2 x 2 mosaic. It has depth and character to it that you can see a hint of when you look inside the shower. I plan to use the same tile in our hall bath.

    • Cyn Brown
      2 years ago

      Wow, Sandi! I couldn't even tell it was tile. Great job!

    • PRO
      Innovate Building Solutions
      2 years ago

      While tile waterproofing systems have improved greatly over the years (with systems like Wedi, Schluter etc.) - the problem is you still have the same doggone grout joints at the surface to contend with (whether this is for the tile shower surround walls or the tile shower pan)!


      I'm a big fan of going 'grout free' -but NOT with cheap shower pans or thin wall panels which flex and look like you picked them up at the discount section of your local home center.


      Fortunately grout free shower wall panels and shower pans have come a long way. I'll include an image to a line of laminate shower wall panels and stone shower pans many people haven't seen before (but which are very popular in Europe).. In addition, I'll include a link to over 100 articles on grout free shower wall panels and shower bases if you want to see tile alternatives (so you won't have to worry about leaks through porous tile grout joints). While tile can be uber-cool (with unlimited design patterns) - it can also be a pain in the neck to maintain.



      Modern low profile stone shower pans



      This is a cracked cement pattern grout free shower wall panel system


      Articles on shower pans and base


      Articles on bathtub and shower wall panels



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